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    Seikai Wikia Page Developments

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    Almael
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    Re: Seikai Wikia Page Developments

    Post by Almael on 9/26/2016, 10:13 pm

    Well, I dunno about the Operation Phoenix becoming a Campaign. Technically it's part of a large event similar to https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Belgium
    and Operation Dynamo
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunkirk_evacuation
    or read
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_the_Bulge
    It's one dedicated military operation during that event. The Battle of the Royal Guards being another semi operation. So if any separation has to be done put it in the Battle of Lakfakalle.
    edit:
    I think if anything the Battle of Lakfakalle could be called a Campaign but it would be the Hania Fderation's campaign not Abh or anyone else... maybe Alliance if all are involved physically, though. No doubt there's intelligence war going on, too. That's one of the plot background for the story I did with Alex's support years ago...

    ------------

    Battle of Gate Lakfakalle
    doesn't sound right because it's not one single gate named Lakfakalle. If anything wit gate it has to be the Kryb gate or the Barke gate (which ever you meant). This again would be part of the Battle of Lakfakalle.

    At the time the status of Kotoponi's fleet is unknown to the people involved. Even though HQ certainly has no reason to believe otherwise. As military commander you got to be pessimistic and consider the worse, planning and fighting with the least forces you are sure of to have. The rest is features.

    The way the novel says it, I surmise a contingency plan was put in place and unsealed at beginning of the event. So she simply got orders and plans handed to her with complete time tables, codes etc. That's how a modern well organized military works. It's not a choice she can make. Only field decisions are her call.

    I dunno about the blockade from the Barke Kingdom's side. It's unconfirmed reasonable guessing at this point. I think the alliance will be consolidating their foothold in Lakfakalle first, hence, a kind of ceasefire. Bot I'm certain both sides will probe the situation (scouts and probes) all the time.
    edit:
    In any case lots of military power is needed to seal off access.
    or
    The Abh could close the sord. But the UM can open it up as easily as well.

    --------------------

    I think Nereis is a (field) career officers. Remember him recording his exploits/memoirs he's out to make history, hence, career focused is unavoidable. For comparison Kenesh is an adjutant career officers. It's natural she would climbs faster.
    I dunno if they got private career before he war. Unless they are reserves and are recalled to duty it's unlikely for someone to return to service by themselves. It's quite unheard off. So I think the rank difference between Nereis and Kenesh doesn't necessarily point to a private career.
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    Re: Seikai Wikia Page Developments

    Post by spoor356 on 9/27/2016, 3:31 pm

    Hello there,

    I realize the fight the Dusanyu and Ramaj had is part of a larger operation. I just suggested it be called a campaign since we do not know the human operation name yet. That being said, Phoenix, or even the fight of the guard are part of at least the battle to breakout of Lakfakalle. I mean either way there's no article called "The Battle of Lakfakalle" yet there are a bunch of broken links which refer to it but it seems ultimately really to be referring to Phoenix, unless we're separating Operation Phoenix from Lakfakalle like "The Battle of Dunkirk" is separated from "Operation Dynamo".

    In which case I request the "Aptic Capmaign" be revisited since that page does not have the 1st, 2nd, or Gateway battles, but really only focuses on the second battle of Aptic.

    Operation Phoenix has some text errors due to the translations I cannot fix. I suppose now I am completely out of my element and I cannot contribute much in the way of meaningful content then. It looks a bit more messy now in dealing with Kotoponi and the options Dusanyu would have.

    As for the rank difference. I never mentioned Kenesh, but I know Neres and Nefee are likely not career military officers. Dusanyu notes that technically they're green, they've never seen battle. Now if they're green in the same manner that Kuffadis or Trife are, I suppose it's different, the front or war was't large enough yet to engage everyone. I imagine their ranks are not correlated with Kenesh or what have you since the statements you made are a bit confusing.

    I figured they had not yet proven themselves in battle, which would make sense and they don't get a large command until after Phantom Flame. Also given the political nature of the Laburec as it seems, it would make sense that command would generally refuse to give Bebaus, nobles or not, key positions due to the family reputation.

    I suppose we're working with different definitions of career military officers. Outside of staff or logistics officers, the only person potentially to have had a strictly military career that I know of would be Trife, but the problem there is I literally know nothing about him prior to Crest of the Stars.
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    Re: Seikai Wikia Page Developments

    Post by spoor356 on 9/27/2016, 6:14 pm

    Extra Notes:

    The Background on Operation Phoenix should most likely be moved to Operation Twin Thorns instead of being placed on that page, since it covers in greater detail the progression and background of that operation, rather than the crisis that developed afterward which led to the occupation of Lakfakalle. I may try to do that later and condense the "Background" section on Phoenix to include more about the Battle of Cryb/Kryb or however it's spelled and a brief note about the counter-offensives suddenly halting all Abh offensives.
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    Re: Seikai Wikia Page Developments

    Post by Almael on 9/27/2016, 8:39 pm

    We don't need the name of the Federation's/Alliance's operation, 'The Battle of Lakfakalle' is enough while saying it's their campaign. We will have to create the article then. I think it's best to move the excess background over to 'The Battle of Lakfakalle' because this wasn't part of Twin Thorn's planning. It's a new phase in the war so to say following that operation. But really, you gotta to draw the line and separate somewhere because things are always fluid and connected. The sides that's more flexible 'fluid' most likely has the advantage or is more effective.

    Just leave the errors unless it's too far fetched.

    Well, Kenesh and the twins know each other and I think it's implied they knew each other either as cadets or right after becoming full fledged officers. I assume this is a reasonable point of reference even though there's no hard fact or confirmation. They are green=untested in Battle because it's almost a century since the last. Besides, for example, the US has tens of thousands of colonels and hundreds of generals/admirals on duty. Even if we disregard our constant violent history the percentage of those actually seeing action is around one percent. It's one reason why everyone's so eager to jump into war in the past 16 years to create experienced commanders and test new weapons.

    Maybe cause I have experience?
    Well, let's say a career officer is someone focusing in climbing as oppose to people who get promoted by standard time elapsed. Which means only combat experienced and adjutant officers are career officers.

    edit:
    http://www.truth-out.org/opinion/item/5920:the-pentagons-biggest-overrun-way-too-many-generals
    964 generals/admirals
    More admirals than ships
    Another, example of difference between the two types of career officers is for example you will never see a two-star special forces general, never! However, special forces members have a +2-rank authority. Meaning an special forces captain has the authority of a colonel of the regular troops. This is a very important necessity when SF need to enlist other troops support. Otherwise SF would always get handed around while fighting for survival.
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    Re: Seikai Wikia Page Developments

    Post by spoor356 on 9/27/2016, 11:29 pm

    Then I'm obsolete. I cannot help.
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    Re: Seikai Wikia Page Developments

    Post by Almael on 9/28/2016, 9:53 pm

    Well, it seems you are better at writing military history. I just know the military first hand.

    Anyway, taking the Battle of Belgium as an example I've made the Battle of Kryb into the Federation of Hania's campaign. The rest will just be part of it so I linked the Battle of Lakfakalle there. Go ahead and write it if you want or I will create it tomorrow with standard text.
    I think it's sufficient to have a section on the 'battle of the Kryb sord' within the article. Not need for another article but if you insist it's fine, too. It has a complete name in the novel... The battle of the royal guard is also named in the novel but just so. So I think it's fine to mention that as an alternative name.

    edit:
    Since when was there a 'Template Figure' for notable people? I know I edited it years ago but never remembered it... Hmmm, about 58 pages could be updated with it. I guess I will do some if they don't have extra detail to consider.
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    Re: Seikai Wikia Page Developments

    Post by spoor356 on 9/28/2016, 11:14 pm

    You mean like this:

    {{Character infobox
    |BG1=0000FF
    |BG2=87CEEB
    |imageBG=0000FF
    |image=[[Image:Trife.png|250px]]
    |name=Tlaïmh Borgh Ybdér Laimsairh
    |born=
    |gender=male
    |anc=
    |race=[[Abh]]
    |hair=dark green hair
    |eyes=light blue
    |nation=[[Humankind Empire of Abh]]
    |social=[[Nobility]]
    |domain=
    |rank=
    *ICY 951-952 Vice-Admiral
    *ICY 952-955 Admiral
    *ICY 955-Present Grand Admiral
    |command=
    }}
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    Almael
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    Re: Seikai Wikia Page Developments

    Post by Almael on 9/29/2016, 12:32 am

    Yes.
    It took too long to update but I updated the figure template to make the title more flexible. Updated pages with it. I will add more title flexibility and color options tomorrow.
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    Re: Seikai Wikia Page Developments

    Post by spoor356 on 9/29/2016, 10:15 am

    Ok. Just to keep a running tab, since I wasn't logged in for some edits, I've edited some of the articles so they all link to each other sequentially

    Skaresh -> Operation Phantom Flame -> Aptic -> Hunter -> *I forget the concurrent/sequential Op* -> Twin Thorns -> Snow Crystal -> Battle of Kryb -. Phoenix. Also added speculation content to Kryb. No edits have been made on persons yet, which I may do later. Depends on my mood and if I am still sad I guess.
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    Re: Seikai Wikia Page Developments

    Post by spoor356 on 9/29/2016, 12:11 pm

    Did a quick overhaul of "The War" page. The lower section has some meat to it now.
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    Re: Seikai Wikia Page Developments

    Post by Almael on 9/30/2016, 1:36 am

    Very well. *thumps up*
    Just corrected typos and added links to yours. I got side tracked to a bunch of updates on other pages. So far don't see any real problems.
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    Re: Seikai Wikia Page Developments

    Post by spoor356 on 9/30/2016, 10:08 am

    I will need your help to create a page for the Lakfakalle Campaign, which will need a few elements.

    That Operation Phantom Flame box that has the list of battles, same for Hercules, will be needed for Lakfakalle. I imagine the box will have four links at least.

    [[Operation Snow Crystal]] - [[Battle of Kryb]] - [[Operation Phoenix]], [[Stand of the Imperial Guard]] - [[7th Fleet's Counterattack]]

    I feel Snow Crystal will be included since it success is driven in part by the ultimate strategic aim of the Alliance to try to draw in a large Abh force and encircle them, preventing them from defending their attack on the capital.

    I don't know what to call Spoor's battle against the column that chases Dusanyu. At the moment I have called it 7th Fleet's Counterattack. I feel the battle wouldn't be named after it's principle commander as it's not turned up yet in the War. To be fair, it could be named after the sord, but I don't know where she fought.
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    Re: Seikai Wikia Page Developments

    Post by Almael on 9/30/2016, 11:33 am

    Done with bare minimum text and pointers. I really don't know all details yet either. Feel free to edit.

    In the novel it says battle of the imperial guards so that should be listed along with battle if Kryb sord/gateway as alternative name.

    "7th Fleet's Counterattack" doesn't sound right because her objective was the rescue and protection of fleeing fleet's imminent destruction. That's the sole purpose of the creation of the fleet as most forces are tied in the defense of Lakfakalle. Not much left for escort (one per something). Her emergency mothly put together fleet from Sotoryuru Naval Base and surrounding area hardly or unlikely has the endurance for longer periods of fighting. Must find some historic reference (I'm sure Romans, Hannibal, Spartacus, servile wars etc.)
    edit: I think 'intervention' fits the bill although misleading regarding strength and preparedness.
    So it should be 'escort intervention'.
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    Re: Seikai Wikia Page Developments

    Post by spoor356 on 9/30/2016, 12:21 pm

    Well I called it that because it's tactical, not strategic. It's not "Spoor's Counter Offensive" because her objectives were just whatever she chose to do based on orders, grab some dudes, save us.

    The closest examples would be The Battle of Halbe and the 9th German Army, which was less an army at that point and more broken elements of inextricably mixed civilians and personnel (Like Dusnanyu's 1st to 6th "Fleets" are probably not actual organized fleet elements, but convenient names for a glorious operation that was assumed to work flawlessly).

    Again without the source, and going on the animation, it looks like Dusanyu just take his units and keeps running straight past Spoor and the enemy isn't engaging him, but pursuing. In that way it's different from Halbe, since the 12th Army didn't move in to make the corridor, the 9th broke themselves out to link up with the 12th, fighting every inch of the way to the river Elbe. From Phoenix it seems Dusanyu managed to break engagement and is no longer fighting, but in full retreat and needs a force to stall or deny further pursuit.

    I suppose in that regard now that I think about it, it's closer to Leyte Gulf and the engagement of Taffy 3, smaller force devastated by the enemy; however, with their destruction of enemy forces, the enemy commander panicked and fled. (That's a dangerously cursory analysis, but I hope it makes sense).

    Another comparison would be The Battle of Fredericksburg, where Brunside had broken units of Union troops trapped in this swale/ground ripple in between Union and Confederate lines, and the way to prevent Lee from wiping out the troops sheltered there was to persist attacking.

    Based on the animation, I imagine she would show up with whatever rag-tag units she was assigned; most likely reinforcements still pouring in, and rather than sit back and let the enemy break themselves upon her at least slightly more organized force would attack and force the enemy to answer her threat.

    As for the battle of the Guard, then we should probably fundamentally re-write Operation Phoenix, since currently I fleshed it out as if it were a stand alone battle with large conflicts within: (I.E. The Battle of Stalingrad versus The Battle of the Pavlov's House, which isn't a name >_<).
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    Re: Seikai Wikia Page Developments

    Post by Almael on 9/30/2016, 12:59 pm

    Yes, tactical and I stay with escort intervention because it's about escorting and intervening (against attacks). This situation and the condition may appear often in history but it's virtually not possible to pull this off time wise. The speed of mobility and communication forbids this in the past unless friendly forces are very close. Even today only drone can pull this off.

    I think the battle of the guards can be considered an independent stage or phase of the overall battle because most of it takes place in plane space around or defending the Kryb sord.

    It's stated the Phoenix fleets are running, being chased and caught and destroyed. Don't remember but read up the Phoenix fleet articles and some ex-emperors.
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    Re: Seikai Wikia Page Developments

    Post by spoor356 on 9/30/2016, 1:18 pm

    Well I don't think it would be called 7th's Intervention. In that case then I suppose it too would be subordinated to Operation Phoenix rather than take place "after" it.

    The Battle of Halbe or Taffy 3 is the closest then I can get you. In which case it needs to be . . . either the Battle of Kryb Sord at Lakfakalle . . .uh, The Battle of the 7th Fleet, uh. . .. I mean Ineed the sord. Also Spoor wouldn't need to escort Dusanyu out, she isn't there or wouldn't make it in time. Dusanyu broke out, he needs reinforcements to keep the enemy from pursuing him and if the animation is to be believed, she moves in and stops the Alliance dead in its tracks.

    Uh, the next closest thing I got for you it The Battle of P'ohang-dong; more specifically, the defenders of P'ohang-dong Girl's Middle School the remainder of whom were saved via counter attack, which simultaneously halted the North Korean advance. Granted Dusanyu is not standing and fighting, he's still in retreat.

    I'll keep looking for examples or . . . what have you, but she's not escorting him like WWII convoys unless that's what's in the novel which I cannot see. She advances past him and denies the enemy from further pursuit.

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    Re: Seikai Wikia Page Developments

    Post by spoor356 on 9/30/2016, 1:31 pm

    Ok, now I am totally lost . . .

    http://seikai.shoutwiki.com/wiki/Battle_of_Lakfakalle I thought this was NOT going to be a page, since . . .it's a campaign, and . . . this really is just Phoenix isn't it? O_o
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    Re: Seikai Wikia Page Developments

    Post by spoor356 on 9/30/2016, 1:37 pm

    Never mind, I'll need the source material, and I don't have it. I'll leave it to you to clean up Battle of Kryb on after, all I'll do is sort out what Spoor's and Kotoponi's roles are.
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    Re: Seikai Wikia Page Developments

    Post by Almael on 9/30/2016, 1:48 pm

    That's alright.
    You can read japanese, right? PM me the email and I'll send the latest version that's ready tonight. Too busy to deal with translation myself atm.
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    Re: Seikai Wikia Page Developments

    Post by spoor356 on 9/30/2016, 1:51 pm

    I can't read Japanese. I should note, given the article on the Battle of Skaresh, that whole page is made up basically since I don't have the source material. Only have the first four manga and the OVAs to go on.
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    Re: Seikai Wikia Page Developments

    Post by Almael on 10/1/2016, 1:54 am

    You don't know what ya missing. Laughing
    Nah, Skaresh is fine only need a bit of adjustment, perhaps. It's pretty much straight forward and apparent what has happened. The source material doesn't say more than necessary. I'm not quite sure what the Danshou books say in Samson's story.
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    Re: Seikai Wikia Page Developments

    Post by spoor356 on 10/1/2016, 1:55 am

    i really must emphasize, I think the Battle of Lakfakalle should be Operation Phoenix, or Operation Pheonix becomes the Battle of Lakfakalle. Also, Spoor's attack really, really should be named the Battle of (Sord Name Here). That or, just something other than interdiction, since interdiction applies primarily to enemy logistics.

    I don't know what I am missing. I'll . . . really need your help.
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    Re: Seikai Wikia Page Developments

    Post by Almael on 10/1/2016, 4:44 am

    Well, I don't want to imitate wikipedia's & popularist's & layman calling everything Battle this and that.
    Imho it got to be happening with an actual site of battle.
    In any case there is an order of things. The question is what kind of order?
    Is it order of time or order of the larger picture.
    The Battle of Lakfakalle is the larger order because this it the main objective of the enemy force and the reason this is happening.
    Operation Phoenix is the securing of the Empire's continuing rule. It is a reaction or response to above.
    Oops, it should have been intervention my bad (corrected). Spoor is just the cavalry so to speak coming to the rescue, but she was still planned as part of Operation Phoenix to protect and escort. So her actions happened as part of planning for worse case if you will. It's not some major thing or objective of the Operation itself. There's probably not much similarly found in history books because of being insignificant or natural.
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    Re: Seikai Wikia Page Developments

    Post by spoor356 on 10/1/2016, 10:42 am

    I really do think considering the nature of the emergency and that Operation Phoenix has a lot of the details, that it along with Ramaj's stand with the Imperial Guard articles would encompass both elements of the battle, or rather the Lakfakalle Campaign I bring that up since that convention was applied to Aptic, even though I felt at the time the "Aptic Campaign" really should have been just called the 2nd Battle of Aptic.

    If you prefer a different naming convention from Wikipedia, then you can try "The Action of [Date Here]", or the Action of the 7th Fleet, since it implies a lot less direction and more so like old naval battles, oh, two enemy paths just so happened to cross. I'm running out of reasonable alternatives and organization.
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    Re: Seikai Wikia Page Developments

    Post by Almael on 10/1/2016, 11:18 am

    Yes, in term of size it encompasses a battle. I think a campaign in itself is a little war where you start at A and end at the finish line B. Take the past as an example
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caesar%27s_invasions_of_Britain
    So the Battle of Lakfakalle is just another yet final stop on the way within the larger Kryb campaign.
    Certainly, it's debateable whether the Kryb Kingdom, the Kryb sord or Lakfakalle have higher priority for the naming of the campaign.
    The problem is probably because we don't have a term between battle and campaign. That's where you are stuck. I think Battle is the safer bet.

    As for the Aptic Campaign it was you guys (mainly Boscolai) in the first place who did all these weird namings. See all the past namings like Mission to Sufagnoff etc. all that mess none created by me. I didn't bother to change it nor would it have been agreeable with you guys I believe. You did more than once delete cannon stuff, too. The wiki is an open project I didn't see a reason to bicker over this. It's different about the accuracy of details, though.

    Nope, action is just action. I's not even in the same league as a battle. Combat maybe but not battle. Hmm, 7th's could be called action. But rather than that engagement qualifies more than action because has purpose and direction. Action is either an initiative or a reaction.

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