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    Space combat?

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    Schwenkdawg
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    Re: Space combat?

    Post by Schwenkdawg on 5/2/2009, 2:47 pm

    Haha, well, my theory in any game that i play is heavily based upon target priority, a tactic i learned from reading too many history books about naval warfare. If you and your enemy both have 10 ships of roughly equal power in a descending order (like 2 battleships, 4 cruisers, and 4 destroyers), if they go one for one in target choice, but you direct all your fire on the largest ship left until they're all gone, you'll usually win, as youre taking away a disporportionate amount of enemy firepower with each loss they suffer, because while they might get a destroyer or 2, by that time youve taken 1 battleship out and heavily damaged the next. So long as you prioritize targets based on threat, you'll come out relatively ok.

    Almael, i admittedly dont have any experience commanding a "fleet" per se, as it's difficult to do in video games (the source of 60-80% of my "experience"), so i'll take what you have to say at face value. As for defending systems, you are correct in that it is much easier in a fluid environment such as space to defend an area with a mobile reactionary force than it is to defend "strong points" (see US strategy with island hopping in WW2). However, the one exception i could point out is sords. theyre a vital link in Seikai interstellar travel, and controlling them is akin to controlling the entirety of space, except in localized instances.
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    Re: Space combat?

    Post by JGZinv on 5/2/2009, 3:10 pm

    You're also forgetting installations such as space bases and construction yards, not to mention civilian structures like orbital stations as seen in COTS or elevators, or even spaced based baron territories.


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    Re: Space combat?

    Post by Schwenkdawg on 5/2/2009, 4:23 pm

    yes but i doubt those installations have enough firepower to effectively be anything more than a little bump in the road for any determined conquering fleet. And also, no matter how effective they are, unless its a vital planet because of a sord or a HUGE deposit of anti-matter fuel, it can be very easily bypassed
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    Re: Space combat?

    Post by JGZinv on 5/2/2009, 6:22 pm

    I wasn't referring to most of those being strategic for military uses, I meant that the UMK sees it as liberating the people, while the Abh would see it as an attack on people of their empire.

    If you also want to get into it, there's the whole resource management thing as well as commerce and recruiting from the local populace... ala Empire At War style tactics.


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    Re: Space combat?

    Post by Almael on 5/3/2009, 12:57 pm

    Lt. Schwenkdawg wrote:Haha, well, my theory in any game that i play is heavily based upon target priority, a tactic i learned from reading too many history books about naval warfare.

    This is true to a certain point. (We had this discussion once at AN.)
    1.depending on fleet size you can't asign all your ships to do that
    2. choosing is a science in itself
    This tactic of concentrated fire works often but the true secret of the tactic lies in firepower.
    And the choosing of target also should be based on that. What you want to do is remove as much enemy firepower as quickly as possible. It doesn't necessary mean to target the big guys first. As my fighter example sometime ago pointed out: big guns doesn't necessary mean more firepower.

    Lt. Schwenkdawg wrote:
    Almael, i admittedly dont have any experience commanding a "fleet" per se, as it's difficult to do in video games (the source of 60-80% of my "experience"), so i'll take what you have to say at face value. As for defending systems, you are correct in that it is much easier in a fluid environment such as space to defend an area with a mobile reactionary force than it is to defend "strong points" (see US strategy with island hopping in WW2). However, the one exception i could point out is sords. theyre a vital link in Seikai interstellar travel, and controlling them is akin to controlling the entirety of space, except in localized instances.

    Ships and naval warfare are not really a point of interest for me. If anything I'm into aircraft and (aero)space. Laughing
    So, I barely have read anything naval, but my general knowledge, science, tech is vast to cover nearly anything. I would be interesting in hearing your analysis/opinion on the 'broadside' doctrine.
    However, I had fought (complicated/simulation) game battles with other people on single, group and fleet level. Although I didn't play much I had good experiences. Very Happy
    I haven't played many space games but I did lots of designs and tactical testing of such, such that I do have a grasp of the true essence of space battle. The rest is pure physics and tech.
    And for some reason I do have a better grasp of the military. cat

    Fighter dogfights aren't different from single/squadron space combat in terms of maneuvers.
    My experience here again is mostly in simulator games and I mean realistic simulators not the arcade type like Ace Combat. (I haven't seen any of those jockeys noteworthy and I play with the keyboard! [3x ingame MoH winner Cool ])
    So basicly my grasp of how things work (whatever they are) are just better than most people.

    Edit:
    JGZinv wrote:You're also forgetting installations such as space
    bases and construction yards, not to mention civilian structures like
    orbital stations as seen in COTS or elevators, or even spaced based
    baron territories.
    The thing with static installation is that their position is easily know and barely changes even if it's some orbit. Anyone can destroy them with simple kinetic attack from virtually any distances. You don't even need to use your own munition, just some asteroid is more than enough.

    JGZinv wrote:I wasn't referring to most of those being strategic for
    military uses, I meant that the UMK sees it as liberating the people,
    while the Abh would see it as an attack on people of their empire.

    If
    you also want to get into it, there's the whole resource management
    thing as well as commerce and recruiting from the local populace... ala
    Empire At War style tactics.

    Asteroid/comet/dust mining is something that's normal for a spacebased civilisation. And I believe able to break things down into atoms by whatever method (nano, plasma) and building things from those atoms shouldn't be a problem. I'm certain most of these are fully automated and are handled by preproduced mobile factories from sizes as small as microchips to starships.

    Recruiting people is probably the greatest obstacle to a spacebased civilisation. Military draft has been and will always be something not many will go for.
    The reason that attracs people to join the star forces is citizenship and more freedom of travel and adventure. Also their non-interference policy to planetary internal matters is probably a plus.
    The UMK on the other hand still handles people based on their origin of birth or race at least these are required to be stated in their documents.
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    Re: Space combat?

    Post by Schwenkdawg on 5/4/2009, 6:15 am

    Top to bottom again, because I'm lazy and its 6 AM:
    UMK and Abh recruiting policies are different based on different needs, beliefs, and perceptions of civic duties. The Abh haven't (thus far) had to institute a general draft for their Star Forces, as most of the crew do it for the citizenship, the pay and retirement benefits, and simply to see the universe. I got the impression that Abh officers are usually genetic Abh themselves, and as such are expected as part of their 3 stage lives to join the star forces. On the other hand, I'd be willing to wager that the UMK has in place a sort of conscription/quota system, much like the Imperial Guard of Warhammer 40k. Essentially, they tell planet X they need Y number of people per year, based on what that planet does and the population of that planet (AKA a highly populated planet with no strategic value will have a high conscription rate, while a low population planet which is crucial to the war effort will have a very low conscription rate).

    I agree with Almael about the inefficency of static defense points in space, with the exception of fortresses at sords, which could, theoretically, be a cost effective and low maintence way of maintaining control over the "choke point"

    As for Almael's knowledge superiority in science and physics and such, I cannot even begin to argue on a space battle level, but i think i could hold my own in naval and maybe air battles. My knowledge of naval engagements (and aerial) comes not from science (further than knowing how a certain technology altered the history), but instead from the actual events that transpired. Haha if you want to start a new thread to bombard me with naval warfare questions, I would be honored to answer to the best of my knowledge.(PS: what games are these with strategic fleet engagements? i know homeworld and sins of a solar empire for capital ship engagements, and that freespace game for fighter engagements, but are there any other really good ones that i should invest in?)

    And finally, we come to the issue of target priority. As I used a broad generalization in my previous post to illustrate a point, I agree with both of Almael's caveats. If you have a fleet larger than what would be effective on a single target, it will probably be subdivided into battle lines, flying wings, or whatnot, and then you could go on a target priority basis from there. And for choosing targets, you are completely correct that the biggest guns dont always mean the biggest threat, its just that in that instance, with no extraneous factors save whos bigger, it would be the case. If the enemy has special ships (command ships, carriers, cloaked vessels), then those need to be given sufficent priority as well. Essentially, the doctrine, and the choice of targets based on that doctrine, should boil down to "destroy the things that can hurt my fleet the most first", be they fighters, carriers, mine vessels, battleships, or even command ships.
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    Re: Space combat?

    Post by Almael on 5/4/2009, 9:38 am

    I had the impression the UMK has a draft like israel. Any men between 18 and 35 or so. Or do social work and such. We didn't see many women so I guess they are exampt.

    Lt. Schwenkdawg wrote:
    Haha if you want to start a new thread to bombard me with naval warfare questions, I would be honored to answer to the best of my knowledge.(PS: what games are these with strategic fleet engagements? i know homeworld and sins of a solar empire for capital ship engagements, and that freespace game for fighter engagements, but are there any other really good ones that i should invest in?)
    I don't really have many questions as I dont' know much about naval warfare to ask.
    I know some about convoi warfare, though.

    As I mentioned before ST: Command I & II are best to get to know ship (system) and their relation to combat.
    You get to know quite some basics and tactics.
    You could try Star Fleet Battles it's the more complex original version, but I wouldn't recommend. You would need lots of time to play it out and you better be good at tracking/calculating your plans.
    Then their is space empires I to V, here you learn more about fleet formations. (You probable never saw half of these formation yet Laughing ) It's a strategy game so you might nnot get to learn much more. There are tons of mods to try out tactics and weapons, but IMHO not necessary realistic as ST:Command.
    There is also a game by the guys who created Imperium galactica.(forgot name) It's quite a single/group battle, in a way a real simulator, but very difficult to play and buggy. Not really recommended. You will get frustrated as hell.
    There is also Independence WarI&II. (Great graphic so simply made.) It's close to dogfight in space with starships.
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    Re: Space combat?

    Post by mitsuki lover on 5/4/2009, 3:14 pm

    Of course it might be that we haven't seen enough UMK soldiers to know what their policy is when it comes to recruitment,etc.
    The only one I can think of is Kyte from Crest of the Stars and he was more military police and keeping Clasbul in line with UMK policy.
    On the other hand,couldn't the propaganda bureau be considered part of the UMK military?
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    Re: Space combat?

    Post by Schwenkdawg on 5/4/2009, 9:12 pm

    I doubt they have a draft if only because an interstellar empire would have absolutely no need to draft that many people. Unless they were trying to make the largest battlefleet in history (to match the frankly outrageous numbers of people who would come in with a draft), then it just wouldnt be wise to do so on such a large scale.

    PS: I'll definitely try to find these games, but as I've never seen a star trek episode of any series in my life, it'll be a difficult learning curve Neutral
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    Re: Space combat?

    Post by SilentVectorX on 5/5/2009, 9:54 pm

    Almael, my problem with thinking about space battles and ship designs, is the physics just don't seem very exciting. Maneuvering at hundreds of miles per hour in an atmosphere and using conventional weapons is fun. But in space, the distances, speeds, and turning radiuses are so huge in scale it seems impossible to apply many conventional aerospace principles, much less tactics or strategy. I dunno, maybe lay down some more ground rules and scenarios, and I can contribute. G-limits, power generation capability, crew limitations, there's just so many variables I dont even know where to start.

    Your sniper-type ship for example. What sort of maneuving capabilities, and combat radius would it have? I'd assume for space warfare to be plausable, some sort of faster than light travel is possible?

    LT Schwenkdog, I'm a big AC fan myself (as in 'played and owned every game except the japanese cell phone versions'). I always go for mobility over armor. Reason: there's always a weapon that can one-shot-kill you no matter your armor. Whereas a Lightweight can usually survive anything that a Heavy can (once).

    I've played rounds of AC4 online, with close range fights so intense that the camera could not track either party. You were practically fighting blind - you are reacting to attacks that havent even started yet. It's insane. If you can close the distance to a Heavy (assuming you have a top-class Lightweight), they don't stand a chance.

    Oh, and nice to meet you all. Surprised
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    Re: Space combat?

    Post by JGZinv on 5/5/2009, 10:45 pm

    Yo... I never got far into AC, but I found going with lightweight since it was better as well.
    I'm more of a Gundam/Z.O.E. build fan myself.

    I don't think we'd be talking about FTL weapons here... that's getting into a size of
    an actual ship and wouldn't be useful unless it was a kamikaze or "boat loaded with explosives" type of instance where you can get it deep inside the enemy.

    We've been talking more on the intra-system type warfare where you've got fleet facing fleet.


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    Re: Space combat?

    Post by Schwenkdawg on 5/6/2009, 1:31 am

    Yes, but the instances of You vs The Doom Cannon arent gunna be nearly as common as the instances of You vs The Annoying Pea Shooter. And since a well armored AC can take 2-5x pea shooter hits than the lightly armored AC, i justify it in a combat scenario. And your combat scenario of "get close" requires you get close first Cool . Also, in this discussion, people are talking like its impossible for a heavily armored ship/AC/whatever to dodge incoming fire. Its harder, yes, but it is not impossible, while it is physically impossible for a lighly armored unit to take the same amount of hits as a heavily armored unit
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    Re: Space combat?

    Post by mitsuki lover on 5/6/2009, 11:36 am

    Though admittedly the only reason to use a pea shooter would be to annoy the heavier armed enemy while your own heavily armed cruiser or whatever came in for the kill.
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    Re: Space combat?

    Post by Almael on 5/6/2009, 11:44 am

    SilentVectorX wrote:Almael, my problem with thinking about space
    battles and ship designs, is the physics just don't seem very exciting.
    Maneuvering at hundreds of miles per hour in an atmosphere and using
    conventional weapons is fun. But in space, the distances, speeds, and
    turning radiuses are so huge in scale it seems impossible to apply many
    conventional aerospace principles, much less tactics or strategy. I
    dunno, maybe lay down some more ground rules and scenarios, and I can
    contribute. G-limits, power generation capability, crew limitations,
    there's just so many variables I dont even know where to start.
    That's why I said before for the sake of fun and scifi there must be lots of 'voluntary' restrictions. But it is always good to know real physic in order to create good scifi or you will mes up or worse embarrase yourself...
    Easiest way is to make sure your tech has some defined limits, so that you can only fight at lower speeds and not worry about sophisticated weapons which naturally kill you in an instant even at our tech level.

    SilentVectorX wrote:
    Your
    sniper-type ship for example. What sort of maneuving capabilities, and
    combat radius would it have? I'd assume for space warfare to be
    plausable, some sort of faster than light travel is possible?
    It doesn't matter (for now). The current scenario is that the weapon is in a defending position, so it won't move much. And most likely it's in hidding among asteroids.
    Even if it's in an attacking scenario the difference is only minor because it will alway be slower than the other smaller ships. So it will be relatively the same with minor changes to actions.
    Only at Star Trek level can we start talking about faster than light battles. If you don't have FTL weapons it's pointless to fight at FTL.

    SilentVectorX wrote:

    I've played rounds of AC4
    online, with close range fights so intense that the camera could not
    track either party. You were practically fighting blind - you are
    reacting to attacks that havent even started yet. It's insane. If you
    can close the distance to a Heavy (assuming you have a top-class
    Lightweight), they don't stand a chance.
    And you are still alive? jocolor
    To be sure, have you heard about energy combat?
    Of course modern aircombat starts 60+ miles away. And you better know your position and bearing and that of the enemy. And act on that in your mind. Not seeing is normal but also means you are a bad flyer. The instant you cross you better are at his tail and keep at that.
    In AC you got so many missiles, shooting two at one target is normal and nothing worth to be proud of your skills. Also you got armor... Try to kill a dozen craft with just half as many missiles and miles away from any base in a good simulator.

    SilentVectorX wrote:


    Oh, and nice to meet you all. Surprised
    Welcome to the bunch! Don't mind if you loose your mind here, that's normal. lol!

    JGZinv wrote:
    I don't think we'd be talking about FTL weapons here... that's getting into a size of
    an
    actual ship and wouldn't be useful unless it was a kamikaze or "boat
    loaded with explosives" type of instance where you can get it deep
    inside the enemy.

    We've been talking more on the intra-system type warfare where you've got fleet facing fleet.

    Yes, besides space is vast. I don't think people are going to fight outside a system because if you miss the attacker he will pass you and conquer your home before you are back.

    Lt. Schwenkdawg wrote:
    Its harder, yes, but it is not impossible, while it is physically impossible for a lighly armored unit to take the same amount of hits as a heavily armored unit
    Yes.
    All in all it depends on the weapons a fleet has at it's disposal. on which strategy and also target priority will be set. In any case, it's easier to get rid of the small ships. And the big gun may be the last to go down. Also there is no sense to try to peal its heavy armor and let your fleet be gunned down by the small ships either.
    While it's also easier to shoot everything at it and let the small ships get down trying to defend it in the barrage (if they do). Here heavy and wide destructive 'explosives' are good to kill both.
    Many possiblities with more or less similar course of actions.

    mitsuki lover wrote:Though admittedly the only reason to use a pea
    shooter would be to annoy the heavier armed enemy while your own
    heavily armed cruiser or whatever came in for the kill.
    The tactics of dividing enemy fire doesn't always work. But don't forget an enemy does have pea shooters, too. So it's relative and once agains comes down to numbers and relative weapons/ship performance.
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    Re: Space combat?

    Post by AlexT on 5/6/2009, 6:04 pm

    Huh, looks like i missed a lot while i was away. Busy summer...
    Anyway - here's little something i could sketch in a hurry - thoughts about that sniper laser cannon design... The barrel should probably be a lot longer but it's not too important right now - the overal shape is.

    Link: http://img4.imageshack.us/img4/1349/snipercannonship.jpg
    Pic:

    What you think?


    Last edited by AlexT on 5/7/2009, 4:16 pm; edited 3 times in total
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    Re: Space combat?

    Post by JGZinv on 5/6/2009, 10:39 pm

    Alex - need to make it a thumbnail or a link... can only see about half the ship.


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    Re: Space combat?

    Post by Schwenkdawg on 5/7/2009, 5:55 am

    Lt. Schwenkdawg wrote:
    Its harder, yes, but it is not impossible, while it is physically impossible for a lighly armored unit to take the same amount of hits as a heavily armored unit
    Yes.
    All in all it depends on the weapons a fleet has at it's disposal. on which strategy and also target priority will be set. In any case, it's easier to get rid of the small ships. And the big gun may be the last to go down. Also there is no sense to try to peal its heavy armor and let your fleet be gunned down by the small ships either.
    While it's also easier to shoot everything at it and let the small ships get down trying to defend it in the barrage (if they do). Here heavy and wide destructive 'explosives' are good to kill both.
    Many possiblities with more or less similar course of actions.

    mitsuki lover wrote:Though admittedly the only reason to use a pea
    shooter would be to annoy the heavier armed enemy while your own
    heavily armed cruiser or whatever came in for the kill.
    The tactics of dividing enemy fire doesn't always work. But don't forget an enemy does have pea shooters, too. So it's relative and once agains comes down to numbers and relative weapons/ship performance.[/quote]

    exactly. IMO, all fleet v fleet combat comes down to whoever comes up with a strategy that eliminates threats to their own big guns/big hitters while minimalizing the threat to the same ships within their own formations. If the commander arrayed against you fights exactly according to the books, even changing the target priority system in the most minor of ways will absolutely destroy his ideal book-based perception of how the battle will go. Earlier, someone mentioned how alot of combat comes down to crew and captain, and i completely agree. If two exactly equal fleets engage in combat, victory will come to those who dare to break standard battle formations, much like Admiral Nelson at the battle of Trafalgar. If the competing fleets are unequal, this burden of victory falls even more heavily on the commander of the inferior fleet to improvise to provide the greatest margin of victory for his outnumbered fleet. even if a fleet is outnumbered 100-1, if the commander can come up with a strategy to eliminate the biggest threats, then his fleet will either be victorious, or wil provide a phyrric victory to the enemy, much like that the spartans as Thermopalye (i dont know how to spell the hot gates in greek...think 300). The most creative commander often gets the victory, regardless of relative strength (think Admiral Yamamoto at Pearl Harbor), and i dont see any reason why this trend of creativity would be changed by the introduction of a zero gravity environment
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    Re: Space combat?

    Post by JGZinv on 5/7/2009, 10:18 am

    There wouldn't be a change in trend, just more to work with in my opinion.
    3 dimensions of movement, different environmental obstacles, etc.


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    Re: Space combat?

    Post by Almael on 5/7/2009, 2:01 pm

    JGZinv wrote:There wouldn't be a change in trend, just more to work with in my opinion.
    3 dimensions of movement, different environmental obstacles, etc.
    Meaning new advantages, disadvantages, more chances or troubles, even new tactics, but the basic rules of warfare cannot be changed.
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    Re: Space combat?

    Post by AlexT on 5/7/2009, 5:47 pm

    Changed links/thumbnails above. So...it's no good? I was going to paint it but if it or idea of sniper ship is not very interesting i might try something else. So far it's like anything discussed here is being criticized to death Smile I'd like to practice painting some scene with ship that would be new to Seikai universe, but it's better be something that many would like to see or there's no point.

    Almael, maybe you got sketch of something bigger than that round gun? Something that would look good too, not just efficient Razz

    Btw - i played some of those games but it was long ago. And funny thing is - i never realy paid too much attention to formations and stuff, i always managed to find some trick to win in games like Master of orion (both), Imperium Galactica, etc etc. And as i think of it - most of the time i could gain advantage through economics, espionage and stuff not directly related to space battles. Maybe that's why previously on AN i always tried to argue about spies and conspiracy while Almael insisted that it's all about space battles - it's about how we used to play our games Very Happy
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    Re: Space combat?

    Post by Almael on 5/7/2009, 8:46 pm

    AlexT wrote:So far it's like anything discussed here is being criticized to death Smile
    That's how you get to learn things. If everything passes you would never learn. geek

    AlexT wrote:Almael, maybe you got sketch of something bigger than that round gun? Something that would look good too, not just efficient Razz
    All that stuff is top secret. Laughing

    AlexT wrote:Maybe that's why previously on AN i always tried to argue about spies and conspiracy while Almael insisted that it's all about space battles - it's about how we used to play our games Very Happy
    If so then why are my stories full of spies and conspiracies?
    I may even better at those economics. I'm more of a defender, though. I didn't play often, but still the ones I played online I won within half an hour. Some even resigned before I could crush them (taking my fun away). Sad
    Anyway, the attacker has always the greater options at the cost of more 'spending'.
    Of course you could fortify and wait to defeat all the attacker's armies, but he could expand and get new resources while your's dry up.
    It all depends on the situation and opportunities. I think being flexible and know how to adapt is the best strategy.
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    Re: Space combat?

    Post by JGZinv on 5/7/2009, 8:53 pm

    I think it's a good design, but the "barrel" on the ship could use some more detail.

    Like on a actual sniper weapon, perhaps a step down design, or add some slots.
    Perhaps use this for inspiration.



    http://www.gunsmokeenterprises.net/images/SNIPER_RIFLE.jpg

    http://images.wikia.com/halo/images/5/5e/SRS99D-S2_AM_Sniper_Rifle.jpg


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    Re: Space combat?

    Post by AlexT on 5/8/2009, 4:50 am

    Almael, I guess it all depends on concentration of resources\forces and logistics. The more mobile you are the larger your effective operation area. You won't be sending your fleet to travel for many turns to some world just to discover that it's defenses advanced beyound your ability to conquer it so you usualy stay within certain effective radius...
    But in space - there's no defensive bonuses i can think of. No cover, fortifications etc. So benefits of being attacker in realistic situation are always greater than of defender. No wonder in Seikai most of the situation where fleet is attacking certain planet/area it always wins. Actualy with all this discussion about gun platforms we are trying to change it a bit so that game becomes more interesting. Smile

    As for spies - you always opposed idea of conspiracies being possible among Abhs as well...
    Btw, are you going to re-post your stories here or make some topic with links?

    JGZ: This one is strange, i'm not sure i've seen these anywhere but it's nice. Is it BB rifle or something?
    Well, more detail require longer barrel so i'll change it and post again.
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    Re: Space combat?

    Post by JGZinv on 5/8/2009, 5:54 am

    We there's two other images there too....

    Not sure what it is, I looked up sniper rifle on Google and those were sort of
    similar to what I was trying to illustrate. Whatever gun the displayed image is, it's got
    to be a small round size... a paintball wouldn't fit.


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    Re: Space combat?

    Post by Almael on 5/8/2009, 7:51 am

    AlexT wrote:
    As for spies - you always opposed idea of conspiracies being possible among Abhs as well...
    I think this is a missunderstanding. I said (I think) it's not easy to do that in the Empire.
    1. No non-Empire ship is allowed in Empire space. (COTSI)
    2. Foreigners must stop at certain border stations for trade (COTSI)
    3. Both sides eavesdrop on ambassies(COTSII/III)
    4. Secret Imperial Police (COTSI)
    Then I had pointed out secret organizations (COTSI) who smuggled the propaganda material (COTS episode1/2). Remeber the lady who got her bag snagged away? She was a smuggler of those materials.
    5. If you read Loststory 6 spoilers you would know the problems, too. Wink
    Yes, I will post it again sometime. For now lets take a bit of a break. I will have to test the spoiler tags here, too.
    6. The way Abh society is the Abhs themselves are unlikely to commit treason in the same fasion as others for money or power, maybe revenge but for nothing regular.
    7. The military itself has safeguard procedures. Even if you got infos you need to transport or sent them through plane-space. That's not possible without ships as the range of communication is very limited. And using radio has it's limits, too. You would need high power(easy to detect) and it takes forever.
    8. If anything things have to be smuggled per goods. And like Lexhue it's possible some snoop in the goods. Very Happy

    As to your ship, it looks like a gun which is fine, but the center of mass will be a problem to ship it around.

    I haven't seen this rifle before, but I know enough to say it's not of the newer designs. It looks like the old WWII/Vietname era sniper rifle with modern add-on. Something like the Brown tactical.

    Well, since you asked I will post an (old) Abh design:


    Edit:
    Seems like the rifle is a 5+ mm shooter. That's not military grade nowaday, but rather police. So this is the weapon average-joe should know if he gets in trouble. Laughing

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    Re: Space combat?

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