Kin of the Stars

Please sign in to post.
Kin of the Stars

A community for the fans of Crest of the Stars, Abh culture, anime, technology, science fiction, video games, and friendly conduct.


    Space combat?

    Share
    avatar
    mitsuki lover
    Imperial Admiral
    Imperial Admiral

    Number of posts : 2206
    Imperial Credits : 10266
    Registration date : 2009-04-10

    Re: Space combat?

    Post by mitsuki lover on 5/8/2009, 11:53 am

    There are probably other ways that the UMK could use to find information about Abh fleet and troop movements other than using on the ground spies.Certainly spy satellites could be one thing,the problem here is of course any such could be dictated and destroyed before it reached it's objective.Another source could be UMK loyalists on the ground though as pointed out above getting the information out of Abh territory would be tricky.The same with Abh loyalists in UMK territory.Then of course there is always torture of prisoners.
    Torture is something neither side would probably admit to but they would probably resort to a variation of it to get needed intel.I don't think the Geneva Prisoner of War Convention exists in the Seikai universe though there might be something similiar.Even if there were that doesn't stop either side from employing 'light' torture.
    avatar
    AlexT
    Kilo-commander
    Kilo-commander

    Number of posts : 542
    Imperial Credits : 7570
    Registration date : 2009-03-18

    Re: Space combat?

    Post by AlexT on 5/8/2009, 1:44 pm

    JGZ, Heh, when i first seen that rifle i knew it can't fire anything but very small caliber or BB Smile (the one with pic).
    Secondary link is your standard M16 (not even M4) - it's barrel was replaced with something i haven't seen, but judging from size of bullets it could also been modified to fire 7.62 ammunition....which is unlikely...Too much of a modifications required for M16 type of rifles so it's 5.56 with weird barrel and pretty standard ~16x optics. It's very similar to AK 74/2 modification which can be used as light sniper rifle as well but with kinda weaker (ПСО1) optics. I can even do my own review of it in future if you want Very Happy
    The third link - this rifle doesn't exist or i haven't checked magazines for a long time. It looks like this and that but i'm 70% sure it's not real, at least i didn't see it Smile
    But anyway - it's not important. To tell you the truth - i never liked look of .50 caliber rifles. They are kinda ugly. I always prefered classical look of M24 for example so i want sniper ship to have as "clean" design as possible

    Almael, spoilers should work:
    Spoiler:
    Razz
    it's your call, but i'd say this forum can realy benefit from having good story - i could create many interesting discussions and feedback.

    As for ship - proportions cannot tell how mass is distributed along the hull - barrel is relatively empty inside....but you're right - i'll keep in mind proportions and weight ballance from now on. But i have simple solution to this - as i'll make barrel longer i will also add some cool looking wings to it that will house additional trusters. Actualy i already should have added them, but my first priority is to keep design "clean" and nice looking Wink

    Btw, a bit offtopic - since you know a lot about space tech, can you suggest where polymer materials (epoxy based) are used in space shuttles/rockets maybe? I know they are, but not sure what for so if you have any ideas where i might start looking...
    avatar
    JGZinv
    Admin
    Admin

    Number of posts : 667
    Imperial Credits : 7660
    Registration date : 2009-03-17
    Age : 30
    Location : 9468 Parallel World Dr. Artifact USA Earth

    Re: Space combat?

    Post by JGZinv on 5/8/2009, 2:06 pm

    Last gun is a sniper rifle from the Xbox game Halo.


    _________________
    True power comes not from strength, but from the soul and imagination
    avatar
    Almael
    Imperial Admiral
    Imperial Admiral

    Number of posts : 2393
    Imperial Credits : 12964
    Registration date : 2009-03-18

    Re: Space combat?

    Post by Almael on 5/8/2009, 5:09 pm

    JGZinv wrote:Last gun is a sniper rifle from the Xbox game Halo.
    Figures. But it's obviously based on the Barret XM107 and an older one(stock).
    http://www.armyproperty.com/Equipment-Info/Pictures/XM107.jpg

    AlexT wrote:
    it's your call, but i'd say this forum can realy benefit from having good story - i could create many interesting discussions and feedback.
    Alrigth.

    AlexT wrote:
    Btw, a bit offtopic - since you know a lot about space tech, can you suggest where polymer materials (epoxy based) are used in space shuttles/rockets maybe? I know they are, but not sure what for so if you have any ideas where i might start looking...
    It's used in tanks or flatable constructs to harden them.
    In the military these kind of stuff is used to seal and prevent fire in tanks, but they used something else. This is mixed in the fuel weight so you actually don't have really as much fuel as shown.(only imortant to know if you are a real pilot or....)

    I once had played with the idea of using a similar fluid to cool my computer. (nonelectrolite very good heattransfer etc.) It was just a bit expensive and over years it could become poisonous.
    avatar
    JGZinv
    Admin
    Admin

    Number of posts : 667
    Imperial Credits : 7660
    Registration date : 2009-03-17
    Age : 30
    Location : 9468 Parallel World Dr. Artifact USA Earth

    Re: Space combat?

    Post by JGZinv on 5/8/2009, 5:51 pm

    If you want something neat to cool your computer... try using hydro fluro ether (HFE) by 3M. It's a clear liquid that is electrically inert. You can sink your pc in the stuff like a fish tank, and it'll run just fine.

    It's a bit expensive and it can evaporate quickly if left open though.


    _________________
    True power comes not from strength, but from the soul and imagination
    avatar
    AlexT
    Kilo-commander
    Kilo-commander

    Number of posts : 542
    Imperial Credits : 7570
    Registration date : 2009-03-18

    Re: Space combat?

    Post by AlexT on 5/8/2009, 6:16 pm

    Here it is - made slight modifications and shaded it slightly to make it pop up a bit so that you feel volume. Now it look like rifle with bayonet Smile But weight should be balanced now. And below is very fast sketch of small gun drone Almael posted previously.


    Almael wrote: It's used in tanks or flatable constructs to harden them.
    In the military these kind of stuff is used to seal and prevent fire in tanks, but they used something else. This is mixed in the fuel weight so you actually don't have really as much fuel as shown.(only imortant to know if you are a real pilot or....)

    I once had played with the idea of using a similar fluid to cool my computer. (nonelectrolite very good heattransfer etc.) It was just a bit expensive and over years it could become poisonous.
    I'm mostly talking about polymer that used to make hard stuff as end result - you add hardener to it, it hardens and become very hard. (warning - poor english is possibly ahead Smile )
    For example it is used in making smaller airplanes whenever their wings are not made of aluminium - they are made of fiberglass cloth impregnated with epoxy pitch (with hardener) and once it hardens - the wing becomes like plastic but a lot and lot more durable yet quite flexible. Same for boats, cars, fuel/water etc tanks... epoxy pitch (it's probably how it's called in eng.) has great many uses.
    I was watching Discovery when i heard NASA guys complaining about using epoxy glue here and there and they wasn't happy because of inborn drawbacks of all epoxys (temperatures, +-fragile, vulnerable to acids etc) and nobody discovered anything better. I happen to know someone who did so i got curious Razz

    As for your cooling idea - why bother? Distilled water + antifreeze is your best friend when you want watercooling. I use it for 2+ years now and happy with it though i'm planing to modify my system further, hopefuly i'll do it soon and post some photos Smile I was actualy thinking about nitrogen once, and i have plenty of means for it, but it's too much of trouble and my PC is already dead silent and overclocked to hell.

    JGZ, no it won't Smile The tank will become hot after few hours of playing your favorite game Smile My watercooling has radiator with radiation area of 1274cm (more than 1 meter), about 3 liters of water and is capable of effectively radiate 300W of heat easily and you won't believe how hot it gets after few hours of playing even after all kinds of modifications i made to it. So that tank will becomequite hot pretty soon if it only radiate heat via liquid's surface - you need radiators to exchange heat with air.


    avatar
    JGZinv
    Admin
    Admin

    Number of posts : 667
    Imperial Credits : 7660
    Registration date : 2009-03-17
    Age : 30
    Location : 9468 Parallel World Dr. Artifact USA Earth

    Re: Space combat?

    Post by JGZinv on 5/8/2009, 6:42 pm

    HFW (i was wrong) article circa 2004

    http://g4tv.com/techtvvault/features/37083/Submerge-Your-Computer.html

    # Pure HFE is non-corrosive and may be used with all common metals. If water is present in HFE, corrosion rates are similar to those on the same metal left in open air.
    # HFEs have zero ozone depletion potential (ODP) and low global warming potential (GWP).
    # HFE is available in different formulas, depending on the conditions for use. On the show, we used 3M Novec Engineered Fluid HFE-7100.
    # Polymers work well with HFE.
    # IF HFE is kept below its boiling point (the boiling point varies based on the formula being used), it should never need to be replaced.
    # A number of studies have shown that HFE does not irritate the skin or eyes.
    # HFE has been proven to be non-flammable.


    nice work on the ship design


    _________________
    True power comes not from strength, but from the soul and imagination
    avatar
    Almael
    Imperial Admiral
    Imperial Admiral

    Number of posts : 2393
    Imperial Credits : 12964
    Registration date : 2009-03-18

    Re: Space combat?

    Post by Almael on 5/9/2009, 11:37 am

    @AlexT: I hope you know what polymers are.
    It's virtually anything that forms chains from fluid resin to plastic. Hence, it's ranked just below chloride and oil in importance.
    As I said before it is used for tanks and inflatable constructs. Cheap throwaway tanks. As a fluid to harden inflatables after they got blown to size.
    However, they are not good for safety and often used as auxiliary medium for sealing, isolation, surface enhancement or the like. Some are top secret and used for heat shields.
    So not exactly very important but can't go without either.
    avatar
    AlexT
    Kilo-commander
    Kilo-commander

    Number of posts : 542
    Imperial Credits : 7570
    Registration date : 2009-03-18

    Re: Space combat?

    Post by AlexT on 5/9/2009, 1:20 pm

    Almael wrote:@AlexT: I hope you know what polymers are.
    It's virtually anything that forms chains from fluid resin to plastic. Hence, it's ranked just below chloride and oil in importance.
    As I said before it is used for tanks and inflatable constructs. Cheap throwaway tanks. As a fluid to harden inflatables after they got blown to size.
    However, they are not good for safety and often used as auxiliary medium for sealing, isolation, surface enhancement or the like. Some are top secret and used for heat shields.
    So not exactly very important but can't go without either.
    Yep, but what i meant are epoxy based polymers and more specific - all variations of epoxy pitch. It's quite "stand-alone" thing used everywhere. But i figured that it's almost impossible to determine exact use of it in such complex constructions as space shuttles and rockets so i guess it's easier just to send letter with technical specifications of better substitute and see if they can use it Smile

    That Abh version of cannon you posted - quite "retro" shape it has Smile But i think it's just basic shape and can be modified for slightly more complex look, right? And is that gun drone i sketched ok so far? Just wanted to have more complex shape, it shouldn't hurt the efficiency.
    avatar
    Almael
    Imperial Admiral
    Imperial Admiral

    Number of posts : 2393
    Imperial Credits : 12964
    Registration date : 2009-03-18

    Re: Space combat?

    Post by Almael on 5/9/2009, 7:10 pm

    AlexT wrote:
    Yep, but what i meant are epoxy based polymers and more specific - all variations of epoxy pitch. It's quite "stand-alone" thing used everywhere. But i figured that it's almost impossible to determine exact use of it in such complex constructions as space shuttles and rockets so i guess it's easier just to send letter with technical specifications of better substitute and see if they can use it Smile
    Well, I think they are eyeing another type of material and other (metalic) element based stuff. Polymer is just not durable enough for long term or extreme use.

    AlexT wrote:
    That Abh version of cannon you posted - quite "retro" shape it has Smile But i think it's just basic shape and can be modified for slightly more complex look, right? And is that gun drone i sketched ok so far? Just wanted to have more complex shape, it shouldn't hurt the efficiency.
    Yes, it's standard design level (my own classification; above basic). Far from enhanced, modern, advanced, futuristic, or alien level. Wink
    Of course, the details can be modified. As long as functionality does not suffer or some adverse effect.
    Oh, the drone is fine, although looks a bit obese. Laughing As long as the relative gunposition are not changed anything goes. Just don't make things get in the way of the gun. If you must have "extensions" put them on the turrets.
    avatar
    AlexT
    Kilo-commander
    Kilo-commander

    Number of posts : 542
    Imperial Credits : 7570
    Registration date : 2009-03-18

    Re: Space combat?

    Post by AlexT on 5/9/2009, 8:45 pm

    Almael wrote:
    Well, I think they are eyeing another type of material and other (metalic) element based stuff. Polymer is just not durable enough for long term or extreme use.
    Now imagine polymer that once hardened is more durable than steel. In hard state it has such a dense structure that once additionaly filled with something like carbide of silicon you can't cut it with diamond disk or drill, it surpases most metals in durability, invincible for any known type of acid. It's adhesion is such that metal will break sooner than this stuff (if used as glue) is separated from it, it has soaking" ability of kerosine (useful for concrete - penetrates, hardens, protects). While being so durable it is still flexible with relative lenghtening of 12% and if filled with plasticiser can be as flexible as ruber if needed. Of course since it's based on epoxy pitch it still fears extreme temperatures (it will loose it's hard state under extreme heat or become fragile in extreme cold), but among it's operational temperatures - it will survive infinite amond of cold/hot cycles. And it's not even toxic once hardened.
    In other words - it's evolution of epoxy pitch and beats it in everything so if epoxy pitch based stuff is used for space - they could definately benefit from much more advanced thing. Many things like tanks/ships/subs/electronics/planes/concrete/buildings/high pressure pumps do so there must be some use for space as well Smile
    I can probably babble about it all day Razz

    Almael wrote: Yes, it's standard design level (my own classification; above basic). Far from enhanced, modern, advanced, futuristic, or alien level. Wink
    Of course, the details can be modified. As long as functionality does not suffer or some adverse effect.
    Oh, the drone is fine, although looks a bit obese. Laughing As long as the relative gunposition are not changed anything goes. Just don't make things get in the way of the gun. If you must have "extensions" put them on the turrets.
    I'll make color sketch. I think there must be some usual abh style stuff...large reactor core in cetner like of Roil maybe? And i realy don't understand why they'd want it to be bi-directional but you know better Smile "omg, enemy sneaked behind out backs!"
    Uh, btw - is that Abh drone or UMK? Smile I was aiming at Abh style - they like curves while UMK are more "edgy".

    Since you haven't said anything about changes i added to UMK sniper ship it means you see no major flaws in it? I want to have em both in full color - UMK and Abh. Once i practice on them a bit i'll go paint known Abh ships maybe..
    avatar
    Almael
    Imperial Admiral
    Imperial Admiral

    Number of posts : 2393
    Imperial Credits : 12964
    Registration date : 2009-03-18

    Re: Space combat?

    Post by Almael on 5/10/2009, 2:43 pm

    AlexT wrote:
    Now imagine polymer that once hardened is more durable than steel. In hard state it has such a dense structure that once additionaly filled with something like carbide of silicon you can't cut it with diamond disk or drill, it surpases most metals in durability, invincible for any known type of acid. It's adhesion is such that metal will break sooner than this stuff ....
    ....I understand your enthusiasm and I don't really like to blow someone's bubble but it can't be helped.
    Yes, epoxy has nice qualities, but that's down here on earth. Aircraft tech requires 100 times more precision/quality than cars. Space at least 10 times more than that.
    I don't have the numbers precisely in my head right now but I'm pretty sure what I'm going to tell you about.
    A shuttle in order to reach space will go through about a temperature change of roughly 200 degrees. In space aroung Earth/Moon temperature changes are about 300-400 degrees.
    Actually the orbit of the space shuttle is over 1000 degree celcius hot. That's why the shuttle is white above and that's why it has radiators which are the cargo bay doors when open.
    Aside from the temperature we have cosmic radiation and the like. Metall can absorb them and their destructive energy, but anything else tends to ablate and get brittle, not to say that metal also ages similary just takes longer.
    Also epoxy (like many such) when hit with micro meteorite tends to form hair cracks which tend to propagate further and it tends to pulverize into powder.
    Metal however, melts and vaporizes and cracks are more contained.
    Sure epoxy has good weight qualities and may be good for minisatellites but it will have to be better for big projects.
    There is a company working on space project in nevada. You migth want to contact them, but mind you they are very secretive. I will get it's name when I can find it again.
    Bigelow Aerospace at http://www.bigelowaerospace.com/

    AlexT wrote:I'll make color sketch. I think there must be some usual abh style stuff...large reactor core in cetner like of Roil maybe? And i realy don't understand why they'd want it to be bi-directional but you know better Smile "omg, enemy sneaked behind out backs!"
    That's the spatial generator.
    The design has secrets, but anyway, when the battle finally reaches it you never know.

    AlexT wrote:Uh, btw - is that Abh drone or UMK? Smile I was aiming at Abh style - they like curves while UMK are more "edgy".

    Since you haven't said anything about changes i added to UMK sniper ship it means you see no major flaws in it? I want to have em both in full color - UMK and Abh. Once i practice on them a bit i'll go paint known Abh ships maybe..
    Abh, UMK cannot build in small sizes as their tech isn't as good.
    I don't complain senselessly, actually it is my credo to try to bring over knowledge not making people bad or so. If they think otherwise then they have an ego problem.
    No major flaw.
    I don't think you need practice. I'm good at drawing but not that good at CG.
    Good, let's see your work.

    Edit: If you are interested read on here
    Experiment Report. Since I don't have access you will have to pay. It's by koreans so the US may have other tests.
    avatar
    AlexT
    Kilo-commander
    Kilo-commander

    Number of posts : 542
    Imperial Credits : 7570
    Registration date : 2009-03-18

    Re: Space combat?

    Post by AlexT on 5/10/2009, 5:47 pm

    Almael wrote:....I understand your enthusiasm and I don't really like to blow someone's bubble but it can't be helped.
    You won't break bubble for me and there's no need for enthusiasm - material i'm talking about is proven and already used in multi million industries . But i was just hoping to find slightly more romantic use Smile
    I see your point though it doesn't have to be used for hull construction or anything that's "outside". I forgot to mention it's impressive resistance to radiation btw - that's why it seen many uses on nuclear powerplants. But what i mean is - there's thousands materials used in shuttles and other space stuff and if epoxy is among them - then there's something better to use, that's why i'm curious about finding where exactly it is used (something more important than fuel tanks)
    I googled some nasa quotes here - looks like epoxy used more often than i thought Smile

    Spoiler:
    "The decision to launch various NASA satellite and Air Force spacecraft
    from the Space Shuttle created the need for a high-energy upper stage
    capable of being deployed from the cargo bay. Two redesigned versions of
    the Centaur vehicle which employed a graphite/epoxy composite material
    for the forward and aft adapters were selected. Since this was the first
    time a graphite/epoxy material was used for Centaur major structural
    components, the development of the adapters was a major effort. An
    overview of the composite adapter designs, subcomponent design
    evaluation test results, and composite adapter test results from a
    full-scale vehicle structural test is presented.
    "
    There's a whole NASA book about it: http://openlibrary.org/b/OL14684706M/Graphite/epoxy-composite-adapters-for-the-space-shuttle/centaur-vehicle
    What is that Centaur vehicle btw?

    "The great variety of adhesives have a wide range of uses, from holding
    stamps on envelopes to holding heat-dissipating tiles to the exterior
    of a space shuttle
    ." (from description of adhesive properties of epoxy materials)

    "Results of a study to demonstrate the applicability of boron-epoxy-
    composite-reinforced titanium tubular members to a space shuttle
    booster thrust structure are presented and discussed. The experimental
    results include local buckling of all-composite and
    composite-reinforced-metal cylinders with low values of
    diameter-thickness ratio, static tests on composite-to-metal bonded
    step joints, and a test to failure of a boron-epoxy-reinforced titanium
    demonstration truss. The demonstration truss failed at 118 percent of
    design ultimate load. Test results and analysis for all specimens and
    the truss are compared. Comparing an all-titanium design and a
    boron-epoxy-reinforced-titanium (75 percent B-E and 25 percent Ti)
    design for application to the space shuttle booster thrust structure
    indicates that the latter would weigh approximately 24 percent less.
    Experimental data on the local buckling strength of cylinders with a
    diameter-thickness ratio of approximately 50 are needed to insure that
    undue conservatism is not used in future designs."

    "NEW ORLEANS (AP) -- A former document manager at the plant that
    made space shuttle Columbia's fuel tank said Monday that the epoxy used
    to attach foam insulation to the tank may have been applied improperly
    in the area where foam snapped off just after liftoff." http://www.redorbit.com/news/space/1834/exworker_questioned_shuttle_foam_epoxy/

    "The torn blanket, while not a flight risk to the Atlantis astronaut
    crew during reentry, could lead to some damage to the OMS pod's internal
    honeycomb-like graphite-epoxy structure and require additional time to repair
    once the spacecraft returns to Earth, NASA has said.
    "

    "The world’s attention turned to epoxy in 2003, with the tragic loss of
    the space shuttle, Columbia. Columbia’s lost tile and the subsequent
    re-entry explosion were both blamed on the epoxy glue that had not been
    given enough time to cure.17"

    Abh, UMK cannot build in small sizes as their tech isn't as good.
    I don't complain senselessly, actually it is my credo to try to bring over knowledge not making people bad or so. If they think otherwise then they have an ego problem.
    I don't think you need practice. I'm good at drawing but not that good at CG.
    Good, let's see your work.
    I didn't think UMK lag behind that much...why can't they just capture and reverse-engineer Abh ship., I guess somekind of boarding frigate will be my next Razz
    Ok, if that sniper thing fires - how it's "beam" should look or is it invisible\very short? Although in anime it can be seen so i guess there's no avoiding "movie style" Smile
    How large you think it is compared to medium sized abh/umk ship ?

    As for skethes - thanks and sorry, i was probably too persistent, and i think you misunderstood me Rolling Eyes I actualy like to hear opinions and i have no problem remaking stuff as many times as needed. It's part of the fun.
    There's 2 directions i'm heading as i learn art - illustration and concept art. The concept art of mechanical stuff requires understanding of various technical aspects that make things look realistic. So i value your opinion - any critique is welcome for it make me impove constantly.
    As for "CG" - i haven't used any here so far - only hand drawing. On computer (with wacom) or paper, it doesn't matter. So if you're good with paper you'd be just as good with wacom (probably slightrly worse though).It takes a bit longer on paper (pencil+chalks) but not by much.
    avatar
    Almael
    Imperial Admiral
    Imperial Admiral

    Number of posts : 2393
    Imperial Credits : 12964
    Registration date : 2009-03-18

    Re: Space combat?

    Post by Almael on 5/11/2009, 2:18 pm

    Interresting.

    The reason everyone is behind is simple. The Empire has been around for a thousand year but it's tech is even longer back. Everyone else has been at war with each other. Some fell, some new arise, some merged, some broke up. So everyone else lost technology or had less time to develope to catch up. Abh computer tech is unique and cannot be duplicated. There are only two plane space technologies: Abh and Sumei.
    In order to capture ships one has to cross the border and find a ship.
    That has not been possible during peace time, because the "spies" would have been discovered by the border patrol. After all only certain systems are border system between the nations. That's why the Alliance had to tow the sords to their systems in order to open new routes to empire space.
    avatar
    AlexT
    Kilo-commander
    Kilo-commander

    Number of posts : 542
    Imperial Credits : 7570
    Registration date : 2009-03-18

    Re: Space combat?

    Post by AlexT on 5/14/2009, 6:50 pm

    Symmetrical design is pain Smile Can't figure out anything that would make that Abh sniper gun look right so far.
    Only weird fantasy style stuff comes to mind Smile
    http://img200.imageshack.us/img200/2034/strangeabhgun2.jpg
    I have something totaly different in my mind...this gun should be a transformer...i'll try it tomorow
    avatar
    Almael
    Imperial Admiral
    Imperial Admiral

    Number of posts : 2393
    Imperial Credits : 12964
    Registration date : 2009-03-18

    Re: Space combat?

    Post by Almael on 5/14/2009, 7:16 pm

    ^_^
    Advanced tranformation has been reserved for the next two level of designs (enhanced-, modern- level) Laughing
    It's actually simpliest at the highest tech level. geek

    Btw.:
    Imperial Weapons Research Report
    Laser Evaluation Test #03872319 by request of the Admiralty

    Laser system specification
    Wavelength 2.9e-7 m
    Lense radius 10 m
    Laser output 1 PW
    Beam duration 0.1 s
    Duty cycle (on/off) 0.5
    Laser Efficiency 0.2
    Waste Heat 200 TW
    Average Power Output 2.5 PW
    Peak Power Output 5 PW

    Target
    Range 300000 km
    Beam radius at target 5.3 m
    Energy density at target 56.5 MJ/cm^2

    Armor type, Armor thickness vaporized
    Carbon 50.86 mm
    Aluminum 115.4 mm
    Titan 85.66 mm
    imperial armor 30 mm
    avatar
    SilentVectorX
    Recruite
    Recruite

    Number of posts : 4
    Imperial Credits : 6107
    Registration date : 2009-04-23
    Age : 31

    Re: Space combat?

    Post by SilentVectorX on 5/14/2009, 8:11 pm

    Great points.

    (Speaking Armored Core, solo sorties here) The Annoying Pea Shooter does happen once in a while, and it's even
    worse when they are as fast as you are. As all AC players know, getting scored "S" means being 'surgical'. Your plan and tactics have to include "not
    getting hit" and "not missing". So running into something that can keep up with you is a rather nasty surprise.

    And you are still alive? jocolor
    To be sure, have you heard about energy combat?
    Of
    course modern aircombat starts 60+ miles away. And you better know your
    position and bearing and that of the enemy. And act on that in your
    mind. Not seeing is normal but also means you are a bad flyer. The
    instant you cross you better are at his tail and keep at that.
    In AC
    you got so many missiles, shooting two at one target is normal and
    nothing worth to be proud of your skills. Also you got armor... Try to
    kill a dozen craft with just half as many missiles and miles away from
    any base in a good simulator.
    Sorry, was talking about the other AC(Armored Core) again.

    I know modern aerial combat very well. I can quote instantaneous and sustained turn rates/bleed rates, max speeds, G loads, standard combat loads, search/track ranges, forward/rear hemisphere ranges, off the top of my head on a good day (at least for the interesting stuff). I probably knew more about the Korean MiG-29's than their own pilots did last month.

    That's something that's rather disappointing about both Ace Combat and Armored Core: it wouldn't be that hard to add a couple models for energy retention. Even some very very basic ones would add a large layer of depth to either game.

    Newtonian physics are a bitch in space though. If you assume that craft have enough thrust to kill the crew, and no form of inertial dampening, it really takes the fun out of ship design.
    avatar
    AlexT
    Kilo-commander
    Kilo-commander

    Number of posts : 542
    Imperial Credits : 7570
    Registration date : 2009-03-18

    Re: Space combat?

    Post by AlexT on 5/15/2009, 5:55 am

    Almael wrote:^_^
    Advanced tranformation has been reserved for the next two level of designs (enhanced-, modern- level) Laughing
    It's actually simpliest at the highest tech level. geek

    Armor type, Armor thickness vaporized
    Carbon 50.86 mm
    Aluminum 115.4 mm
    Titan 85.66 mm
    imperial armor 30 mm

    Ok, maybe not transformer, but it will look like it consist of different curved plates and is kinda hollow inside while overal shape is the same (vacuum cleaner Razz ).

    As for gun power - while 56 mega joules /cm^2 is quite impressive it didn't inflict that much of damage - only 50-30mm of armor? If memory serves me right - even Roil got way thicker armor and can survive that. But beam radius is also very big, should be a lot smaller at 1/3 of range and much more destructive as result.
    Of course it all depends on duiration of the beam. If you keep shooting then it's bad news, but energy consumtion is immense as well...need info about power plant and cooling system.

    Also - since it's destructive force is based on heat i guess reflective armor should be very effective?
    And what about shields - they probably can't block laser just like they can't block light?
    avatar
    mitsuki lover
    Imperial Admiral
    Imperial Admiral

    Number of posts : 2206
    Imperial Credits : 10266
    Registration date : 2009-04-10

    Re: Space combat?

    Post by mitsuki lover on 5/15/2009, 12:18 pm

    They used the 'pea-shooter' method of swarming smaller attack vessels against a larger UMK vessel in Banner of the Stars during the Battle of the Aptic Gate.That's the action where the Bosroil I
    was destroyed.
    Even the best armored ship will have an Achilles Heel somewhere.For example the Planet Eater in Star Trek was destroyed when Kirk set the Constellation's warp drive to overload when it entered.
    The same no doubt could be true of any ship in the Seikai universe no matter how well armored and armed it might appear to be.
    avatar
    spoor356
    Front Flyer
    Front Flyer

    Number of posts : 207
    Imperial Credits : 7544
    Registration date : 2009-04-19
    Age : 32

    Re: Space combat?

    Post by spoor356 on 5/15/2009, 3:25 pm

    Hello I'm back . .. I saw the second ship (sniper vessel) which was neat . . . um an asside, what about the original ship I mentioned >_<
    avatar
    Almael
    Imperial Admiral
    Imperial Admiral

    Number of posts : 2393
    Imperial Credits : 12964
    Registration date : 2009-03-18

    Re: Space combat?

    Post by Almael on 5/15/2009, 8:27 pm

    SilentVectorX wrote:Great points.

    (Speaking Armored Core, solo sorties here) The Annoying Pea Shooter does happen once in a while, and it's even
    worse
    when they are as fast as you are.
    We do our best for entertainment. Very Happy
    Yes, here is where the slightest weapon or armor advantage comes in play. And of course skills skills ... shooting skills.

    SilentVectorX wrote:I
    know modern aerial combat very well. I can quote instantaneous and
    sustained turn rates/bleed rates, max speeds, G loads, standard combat
    loads, search/track ranges, forward/rear hemisphere ranges, off the top
    of my head on a good day (at least for the interesting stuff). I
    probably knew more about the Korean MiG-29's than their own pilots did
    last month.

    Newtonian
    physics are a bitch in space though. If you assume that craft have
    enough thrust to kill the crew, and no form of inertial dampening, it
    really takes the fun out of ship design.
    Great, then I don't need to explain everything and leave it to you for explaining. That way someone other than me conforms stuff.

    Yes, that's why we haven't started talking about that! Laughing

    AlexT wrote:
    Ok, maybe not transformer, but it will look like it consist of different curved plates and is kinda hollow inside while overal shape is the same (vacuum cleaner Razz ).

    As for gun power - while 56 mega joules /cm^2 is quite impressive it didn't inflict that much of damage - only 50-30mm of armor?

    If memory serves me right - even Roil got way thicker armor and can survive that. But beam radius is also very big, should be a lot smaller at 1/3 of range and much more destructive as result.

    Of course it all depends on duiration of the beam. If you keep shooting then it's bad news, but energy consumtion is immense as well...need info about power plant and cooling system.

    Also - since it's destructive force is based on heat i guess reflective armor should be very effective?
    And what about shields - they probably can't block laser just like they can't block light?
    Well, more or less. So you make an onion out of it?

    I will talk to the research staff to include more data e.g. temperature of the target.
    results for some tweaks:
    Beam quality 3.0
    Armor type, Armor thickness vaporized
    Carbon 83.03 mm
    maximum impulse shock range 60000 km; 10378.75 mm armor vaporized; beam radius 1.0614 m
    The raw energy seem high but that's not true, you have to consider that the energy serves to heat up until the matter vaporizes. The temperature needed is at least 1300-1500 degree celcius. Also for each Kelvin increase you need 388 kJ. In other words the energy is divided by several millions.
    Then there is the thing with diffraction in order to have a certain beam width the 'lense' has to have a certain size.

    I have writen quite some info in the Laburec Library! Look for Abh laser weapon entry.
    Abh use a different kind of laser (hint above!). Read the japanese text in the schematic pictures. Razz

    Reflective armor is not effective for long. Maybe some milliseconds at best before it shatters and vaporizes, but enough for defense strategy I told before.
    Also forget reflective clouds. A cloud can never outperform actual solid armor.

    For some reason Abh shields are effective against laser...but it can be penetrated if the beam is strong enough.

    mitsuki lover wrote:
    Even the best armored ship will have an Achilles Heel somewhere.For example the Planet Eater in Star Trek was destroyed when Kirk set the Constellation's warp drive to overload when it entered.
    The same no doubt could be true of any ship in the Seikai universe no matter how well armored and armed it might appear to be.
    True, but then those ships heat up in combat so it gets easier to penetrate their hot armor.
    I really doubt an advancedd tech like the planet eater is so easily destroyed. Torpedos have a higher effective explosion then bulk antimatter, which disperses most by initial reaction before the rest gets to react.

    spoor356 wrote:Hello I'm back . .. I saw the second ship (sniper vessel) which was neat . . . um an asside, what about the original ship I mentioned >_<
    If you mean the battleship, we went on to the turret, but if you insist ... we will see. Wink

    Edit:
    If you haven't found it yet:
    Laburec Library: Abh weapons page -> under laser -> Abh laser page
    One of those les visible tech pages
    As you will see in the performance graph of the Basroil laser, the effective range is somewhere at 5000+ km using normal technology, minimum power max range wouldbe aroung 9000 km. This happens to be within the range we see in the series.
    Similary the results for the antiproton cannon happens to be nearly the same range seen.
    I don't know if the people making the animation knew something or that it was quite a good guess. As to heat sink using water and ship weight or size, my estimates are quite close to ideal calculation results...although, I did based that on simple experience on mass density and 3D experience.

    Edit:
    ordered some more laser tests; the optimum system at 300000 km range
    will need a lense with radius 30 m; everything else is same.
    Energy density at target 508.5865 MJ/cm^2
    Beam radius at target 1.7689_ m
    armor, armor vaporized
    carbon 1373.48 mm; no impulse shock

    And here is something of a compact and armored warship. 'Fast Cruiser'
    As powerful as a Kau class but at 1/2 the weight and half size. About 2 times the weight of a Caubh class. 2 bidirectional EM cannon, 2 normal EM cannon, numerous turrets, numerous small defense turrets, 8 mines (enough for heavy engagement), 4 small shuttle bays (aft of 'heads'), 6 propulsion housing, crew of 50

    avatar
    mitsuki lover
    Imperial Admiral
    Imperial Admiral

    Number of posts : 2206
    Imperial Credits : 10266
    Registration date : 2009-04-10

    Re: Space combat?

    Post by mitsuki lover on 5/25/2009, 2:09 pm

    I wonder though,if in actual space warfare speed and accuracy would be more important than how well armored a ship is. alien
    avatar
    Almael
    Imperial Admiral
    Imperial Admiral

    Number of posts : 2393
    Imperial Credits : 12964
    Registration date : 2009-03-18

    Re: Space combat?

    Post by Almael on 5/25/2009, 4:51 pm

    Well, veterans would tell you "speed is life".
    This is true for half the time depending on your ship's capability.
    Accuracy is relative, but yes 'hitting' is important otherwise there is no point. Smile
    Armor does help but if there are 'lighter' alternatives anyone would ditch it for speed.
    avatar
    mitsuki lover
    Imperial Admiral
    Imperial Admiral

    Number of posts : 2206
    Imperial Credits : 10266
    Registration date : 2009-04-10

    Re: Space combat?

    Post by mitsuki lover on 5/27/2009, 2:17 pm

    As long as it gets the job done in other words.
    btw:I wonder how well the Archangel from Gundam Seed would do against an average Abh attack ship,that is without Kira in the Freedom helping out.
    avatar
    Almael
    Imperial Admiral
    Imperial Admiral

    Number of posts : 2393
    Imperial Credits : 12964
    Registration date : 2009-03-18

    Re: Space combat?

    Post by Almael on 5/27/2009, 2:55 pm

    I think those GSeed ships are over weaponized, I don't think you can actually have all those systems inside a ship without sacrifying crew space. Just the mechanical, pneumatic support and redundancy would take many times the space of the weapon in question. Then again gundam is only realistic in terms of robot mechanic not really technology. And gseed has the most advanced gundam tech, no wonder after two decades of development.

    Sponsored content

    Re: Space combat?

    Post by Sponsored content


      Current date/time is 8/17/2017, 3:27 pm